I will argue that the pay difference is a direct result of sexism. Elementary schools historically have had more female teachers, and still do. We're often seen to be in more a caregiving role than educators with high school aged students. It's not that the work is in any way easier with younger children. In fact, I could make many good arguments that it's actually more difficult.
Of course, it's sexism. It exists in all areas not just Corp America (although it's very bad there too, I can vouch for that). I have a close relative who was an administrator and had to file a Title IV complaint against a large school district bc she had evidence other male admins were paid more. Your comments on the systemic nature of the pay are spot on.
I think there is an argument to be made that high school classes are more rigorous, have more assignments that are harder to prepare than workbook sheets, or whatever. I also think we could have a district that had two tiers of pay. Listen, teacher pay is public info. Any d65 teacher can see this and apply at ETHS for a job if they want to. Does every city that consolidates k-12 have same pay rate? I’m more pissed about the gender pay gap in Evanston. That is suss.
Teachers are certified for specific grade ranges. As a certified K-8 teacher, I cannot apply at ETHS if I want to. Addressing your comment regarding more rigorous work and more assignments is an issue too involved for this medium, but most (not all) teachers I know are certainly not just making copies of workbook sheets.
I concede you make a good point, but I happen to know that it is entirely possible to go from elementary to high school as a teacher here in Evanston. Someone I graduated from ETHS and later taught my kid at a d65 middle school did just that. You need to be certified. You aren’t obligated to only ever be certified for k-8 and my point was, if d65 teachers like the salaries paid to HS educators better, they can apply. I don’t think k-8 teachers are always copying worksheets but I’m also the parent of six children, one currently in 4th grade, and they have workbooks for math, science, and reading. Hence my comment. As the child of a 3rd grade teacher, I also know well the hours spent planning units on fairy tales, the ravines in Highland Park (where she taught for 25 years), and projects like a story quilt her kids made and she sewed. I still contend there is an argument to be made that HS classes are more rigorous and that it can explain and justify the salary difference. And differing salary tiers alone is not a good enough reason to not explore the consolidation of the two districts. My opinion.
Of course it's entirely possible to go from elementary to high school. It was possible for me to go from corporate to education - with lots of schooling & certification. Ignoring the roadblocks to doing so is simplistic. And I contend that academic "rigor" in terms of the content knowledge necessary at the HS level does not in any way diminish or surpass the skills needed to actually educate students, regardless of age. That said, I am fully in favor of consolidation of the districts to rid taxpayers of the bloat of administration costs.
Yeah, I get it. I wouldn’t want to be a teacher at all these days and I’m grateful for those that do. Honestly, at this point in my life, I don’t want to be around more than two kids at the same time, so anyone that willingly does is a hero in my books. I understand the certification aspect, my point only was that I’m not sure you would legally have to pay all the teachers the same in order to join the two districts. I also think maybe the caliber of Board members would be greater, and candidates would get elected for what actual skills they bring to the table to operate such a district, rather than on how many times they can use the word “equity”.
" I am fully in favor of consolidation of the districts to rid taxpayers of the bloat of administration costs." This assumes that there would be significant savings from the consolidation. My guess is that larger districts have _more_ administrative overhead, but that is simply a guess. Has anyone seen any actual data, either comparisons or better yet an actual study of an actual consolidation?
While the data for comparisons is public at ISBE, Tom noted that it's complicated to obtain, and I abandoned my effort to get it.
Yeah I'll poke around, the ISBE actually does have some pretty good documentation they've published about past consolidations. I think, in general, the ISBE and the IL legislature is in favor of consolidations - there was a big law passed in 2007 to even fund some consolidations.
I have been an advocate for consolidating the districts now so more than ever. I have never lived in a state where a community has more than one district (I have lived in 6). It's simply not cost effective AND there is less likely to be continuity across curriculum--exactly what is happening in Evanston. CONSOLIDATE. If major airlines can consolidate and merge with dozens of unions then it should be fairly straight between 65 (1400 employees) and 202 (270 certified staff, ? employees). It doesn't have to be done all at once and there actually can be a strategic plan outlining full consolidation done over a period of years.
As far as difference in pay, I think high school teachers should make more and for a variety of reasons. Overall both Evanston school districts pay well in relation to other districts but even that can be negotiated so there is more equity overall.
It's not up to the schools if they want to consolidate, it's up to taxpayers and voters.
That was what they told me when I called. I know people are worried that D65 will ‘bring down’ D202 but I think with recent statistics from the past two years it’s tough to say that Ian my already occurring.
Ha! That's funny considering D65 kids end up in D202. It's already impacting D202 as you note. It will only get worse - anyone who cares about education and can afford it has moved their kids private or left Evanston. D202 is a ticking time bomb and they know it.
I agree. ETHS is already dealing with the consequences of students who are unprepared yet residents seem to still be oblivious, in denial or simply uneducated about what is happening with education in Evanston. We also pulled our kids and left the districts. What amazes me is that even if you don’t have students in school or have made the choice to educate them elsewhere doesn’t justify not caring about the direction of either district—the majority of your taxes and property value is based on the school districts. Not having students in the district thus not caring about how they preform is a fallacy.
All Evanston teachers make very good salaries and have good benefits. I’d argue that the biggest problem is the inconsistency in quality across teachers. For what we pay, all D65 and D202 teachers should be well above average, they should follow the approved curriculum, and they should all communicate often with parents. Anyone who’s had kids in D65 knows that this is not the case. Substandard teachers are never held accountable because it’s easier to let things slide than fight the union. Parents are afraid of being called racist if they complain so nothing changes and mediocre teachers who do the bare minimum stay for decades. I think teacher quality is better at the high school because they are far more selective than D65.
Maybe it's because good veteran teachers have left District 65 for better pastures (believe it or not, evanston is not exceptional for teacher pay, many other districts around pay equal or more). They keep hiring teachers who have barely graduated because it's cheaper and they have no money. Tenure doesn't exist the way you knew it in the 90s and early 00s so educate yourself. Teachers can get fired any time now, no matter how many years they have been in the classroom, and unions do not have that much power anymore, and I have never seen a union fight for a teacher to not get fired in my 16 years as a teacher. Blame admin and your school board for the lack of quality teacher.
100% this. Our elementary kid has had two rookie teachers two years in a row. While they may mean well, they wear their inexperience on their sleeves. I know for a fact that the vacancies were a result of long-time teachers getting fed up with the Horton regime and finding better pay elsewhere.
And another 100% agreement on the union. Board member and union member, Omar Salem, endorsed the recent round of firings.
Without much more detailed information, I don’t really see this as a problematic gender gap issue. I generally expect HS teachers to be paid more than elementary school teachers and would expect middle school teachers to be in between (although that does not seem to be the case here). I think the prevalence of women in elementary schools is driven by a general preference of parents for women to teach their young kids; guys understand this and tend to gravitate to teaching older kids where this does not seem an issue. All and all, it seems to me that the median Evanston teacher is pretty well paid for a job that requires far fewer annual hours of work than a typical full time job. Anyways, thank you for the data and the newsletter.
As a recruiter in the k-12 public education space, I am extremely alarmed at the conversation in the comment section and how much general ignorance is being displayed about how teachers are compensated and why.
Moreover, the consolidation of these districts would be a terrible disaster. The fact there is even a petition getting started here to make this happen - makes me actually feel ill.
As someone who has toured hundreds of K-12 schools across the country, I have concluded/seen that:
A) huge K-12 school bureaucracies (like CPS) end up spending tons of time and effort and money to try and make their district operationally smaller in order to better meet the needs of their students. And, often, high schools end up getting the shaft as a bulk of resources go to - rightly - ensuring K-3 literacy. Evanston is LUCKY that their district is structurally separated in this way. It actually makes operations more efficient and responsive (even if it doesn't feel that way) and allows for creativity.
B) schools as huge as ETHS absolutely benefit from having dedicated school boards that can operate nimbly and make quick adjustments to better meet the needs of students and families. Less than a hundred districts IN THE STATE are larger than ETHS alone. Why would we make it bigger? To save money? https://www.isbe.net/Pages/Fall-Enrollment-Counts.aspx
C) the best and most innovative schools are those that ensure as much autonomy to the educators and school leaders (and schools!) as possible. Folding ETHS into D65 would precipitously lower the autonomy of that campus.
D) specifically to Evanston, it is important to note that while ETHS has been struggling in recent years, they have historically been incredibly successful at moving a diverse student body toward graduation. They have been able to do this, in my opinion, largely because they are politically and operationally inoculated from the nonsense happening below. By virtue of having a separate board, they are in a position to exert political influence on D65 as opposed to being absorbed into the dysfunction of that governing body.
In terms of pay differential: fewer HS teachers are trained every year than K-8 teachers. HS teachers often require specific endorsements and demonstrations of content expertise. They are in higher demand, harder to find and, as such, end up getting paid more. There's more to it than that, but that's how it shows up in my work.
Finally, I thought the "50 signatures" comment above was something of a call to get a petition started.
Oh yeah, that was kind of a call to get a petition started and I'm going to do it because I'm still not convinced this is a bad idea. But I can be convinced (I'll reach out to you via email and we can debate). I could get 50 signatures this weekend at the Farmers Market.
This might take away autonomy from ETHS or it might not depending on how this new consolidated District gets structured. I am personally going to advocate that both boards get disbanded and we re-elected a new one with board members who are compensated.
Even if it did take away autonomy, I'm still not convinced that we (as a town) should value the autonomy of ETHS over making sure the K-8 teachers are fairly compensated for their work. Why do we pay a 9th grade science teacher 23% more than an 8th grade science teacher? The work is not meaningfully different.
I realize that ETHS holds a special place in a lot of people's hearts and none of this is about changing that but right now ETHS benefits to the detriment of D65. Sure, D65 has a lot of bad leadership and that's part of the reason for the mess but long term, the sustainability of K-8 districts isn't there - they have vastly more assets to worry about with none of the upside you get form the HS (like private donations, etc), labor/admin costs are going up and they're always going to be lagging in pay.
Like there is no way you can justify the 80% difference in pay in Skokie between K-8 and the Niles teachers! There's no amount of additional credentials they get worth that much more.
I will argue that the pay difference is a direct result of sexism. Elementary schools historically have had more female teachers, and still do. We're often seen to be in more a caregiving role than educators with high school aged students. It's not that the work is in any way easier with younger children. In fact, I could make many good arguments that it's actually more difficult.
Of course, it's sexism. It exists in all areas not just Corp America (although it's very bad there too, I can vouch for that). I have a close relative who was an administrator and had to file a Title IV complaint against a large school district bc she had evidence other male admins were paid more. Your comments on the systemic nature of the pay are spot on.
I'm starting to put together some documents on this - there's a whole thing that goes back to the 1950s on why IL high schools pay men more.
I think there is an argument to be made that high school classes are more rigorous, have more assignments that are harder to prepare than workbook sheets, or whatever. I also think we could have a district that had two tiers of pay. Listen, teacher pay is public info. Any d65 teacher can see this and apply at ETHS for a job if they want to. Does every city that consolidates k-12 have same pay rate? I’m more pissed about the gender pay gap in Evanston. That is suss.
Teachers are certified for specific grade ranges. As a certified K-8 teacher, I cannot apply at ETHS if I want to. Addressing your comment regarding more rigorous work and more assignments is an issue too involved for this medium, but most (not all) teachers I know are certainly not just making copies of workbook sheets.
I concede you make a good point, but I happen to know that it is entirely possible to go from elementary to high school as a teacher here in Evanston. Someone I graduated from ETHS and later taught my kid at a d65 middle school did just that. You need to be certified. You aren’t obligated to only ever be certified for k-8 and my point was, if d65 teachers like the salaries paid to HS educators better, they can apply. I don’t think k-8 teachers are always copying worksheets but I’m also the parent of six children, one currently in 4th grade, and they have workbooks for math, science, and reading. Hence my comment. As the child of a 3rd grade teacher, I also know well the hours spent planning units on fairy tales, the ravines in Highland Park (where she taught for 25 years), and projects like a story quilt her kids made and she sewed. I still contend there is an argument to be made that HS classes are more rigorous and that it can explain and justify the salary difference. And differing salary tiers alone is not a good enough reason to not explore the consolidation of the two districts. My opinion.
Of course it's entirely possible to go from elementary to high school. It was possible for me to go from corporate to education - with lots of schooling & certification. Ignoring the roadblocks to doing so is simplistic. And I contend that academic "rigor" in terms of the content knowledge necessary at the HS level does not in any way diminish or surpass the skills needed to actually educate students, regardless of age. That said, I am fully in favor of consolidation of the districts to rid taxpayers of the bloat of administration costs.
Yeah, I get it. I wouldn’t want to be a teacher at all these days and I’m grateful for those that do. Honestly, at this point in my life, I don’t want to be around more than two kids at the same time, so anyone that willingly does is a hero in my books. I understand the certification aspect, my point only was that I’m not sure you would legally have to pay all the teachers the same in order to join the two districts. I also think maybe the caliber of Board members would be greater, and candidates would get elected for what actual skills they bring to the table to operate such a district, rather than on how many times they can use the word “equity”.
" I am fully in favor of consolidation of the districts to rid taxpayers of the bloat of administration costs." This assumes that there would be significant savings from the consolidation. My guess is that larger districts have _more_ administrative overhead, but that is simply a guess. Has anyone seen any actual data, either comparisons or better yet an actual study of an actual consolidation?
While the data for comparisons is public at ISBE, Tom noted that it's complicated to obtain, and I abandoned my effort to get it.
Yeah I'll poke around, the ISBE actually does have some pretty good documentation they've published about past consolidations. I think, in general, the ISBE and the IL legislature is in favor of consolidations - there was a big law passed in 2007 to even fund some consolidations.
I have been an advocate for consolidating the districts now so more than ever. I have never lived in a state where a community has more than one district (I have lived in 6). It's simply not cost effective AND there is less likely to be continuity across curriculum--exactly what is happening in Evanston. CONSOLIDATE. If major airlines can consolidate and merge with dozens of unions then it should be fairly straight between 65 (1400 employees) and 202 (270 certified staff, ? employees). It doesn't have to be done all at once and there actually can be a strategic plan outlining full consolidation done over a period of years.
As far as difference in pay, I think high school teachers should make more and for a variety of reasons. Overall both Evanston school districts pay well in relation to other districts but even that can be negotiated so there is more equity overall.
It's not up to the schools if they want to consolidate, it's up to taxpayers and voters.
Update it takes *50 signatures* to get this on the 2025 ballot
That was what they told me when I called. I know people are worried that D65 will ‘bring down’ D202 but I think with recent statistics from the past two years it’s tough to say that Ian my already occurring.
Ha! That's funny considering D65 kids end up in D202. It's already impacting D202 as you note. It will only get worse - anyone who cares about education and can afford it has moved their kids private or left Evanston. D202 is a ticking time bomb and they know it.
I agree. ETHS is already dealing with the consequences of students who are unprepared yet residents seem to still be oblivious, in denial or simply uneducated about what is happening with education in Evanston. We also pulled our kids and left the districts. What amazes me is that even if you don’t have students in school or have made the choice to educate them elsewhere doesn’t justify not caring about the direction of either district—the majority of your taxes and property value is based on the school districts. Not having students in the district thus not caring about how they preform is a fallacy.
All Evanston teachers make very good salaries and have good benefits. I’d argue that the biggest problem is the inconsistency in quality across teachers. For what we pay, all D65 and D202 teachers should be well above average, they should follow the approved curriculum, and they should all communicate often with parents. Anyone who’s had kids in D65 knows that this is not the case. Substandard teachers are never held accountable because it’s easier to let things slide than fight the union. Parents are afraid of being called racist if they complain so nothing changes and mediocre teachers who do the bare minimum stay for decades. I think teacher quality is better at the high school because they are far more selective than D65.
Maybe it's because good veteran teachers have left District 65 for better pastures (believe it or not, evanston is not exceptional for teacher pay, many other districts around pay equal or more). They keep hiring teachers who have barely graduated because it's cheaper and they have no money. Tenure doesn't exist the way you knew it in the 90s and early 00s so educate yourself. Teachers can get fired any time now, no matter how many years they have been in the classroom, and unions do not have that much power anymore, and I have never seen a union fight for a teacher to not get fired in my 16 years as a teacher. Blame admin and your school board for the lack of quality teacher.
100% this. Our elementary kid has had two rookie teachers two years in a row. While they may mean well, they wear their inexperience on their sleeves. I know for a fact that the vacancies were a result of long-time teachers getting fed up with the Horton regime and finding better pay elsewhere.
And another 100% agreement on the union. Board member and union member, Omar Salem, endorsed the recent round of firings.
Without much more detailed information, I don’t really see this as a problematic gender gap issue. I generally expect HS teachers to be paid more than elementary school teachers and would expect middle school teachers to be in between (although that does not seem to be the case here). I think the prevalence of women in elementary schools is driven by a general preference of parents for women to teach their young kids; guys understand this and tend to gravitate to teaching older kids where this does not seem an issue. All and all, it seems to me that the median Evanston teacher is pretty well paid for a job that requires far fewer annual hours of work than a typical full time job. Anyways, thank you for the data and the newsletter.
As a recruiter in the k-12 public education space, I am extremely alarmed at the conversation in the comment section and how much general ignorance is being displayed about how teachers are compensated and why.
Moreover, the consolidation of these districts would be a terrible disaster. The fact there is even a petition getting started here to make this happen - makes me actually feel ill.
Explain more, please! If it makes you ill - why? Can you be more specific than just that you hate the idea?
(also there is no petition, not sure where you are seeing that info)
I can definitely explain more.
As someone who has toured hundreds of K-12 schools across the country, I have concluded/seen that:
A) huge K-12 school bureaucracies (like CPS) end up spending tons of time and effort and money to try and make their district operationally smaller in order to better meet the needs of their students. And, often, high schools end up getting the shaft as a bulk of resources go to - rightly - ensuring K-3 literacy. Evanston is LUCKY that their district is structurally separated in this way. It actually makes operations more efficient and responsive (even if it doesn't feel that way) and allows for creativity.
B) schools as huge as ETHS absolutely benefit from having dedicated school boards that can operate nimbly and make quick adjustments to better meet the needs of students and families. Less than a hundred districts IN THE STATE are larger than ETHS alone. Why would we make it bigger? To save money? https://www.isbe.net/Pages/Fall-Enrollment-Counts.aspx
C) the best and most innovative schools are those that ensure as much autonomy to the educators and school leaders (and schools!) as possible. Folding ETHS into D65 would precipitously lower the autonomy of that campus.
D) specifically to Evanston, it is important to note that while ETHS has been struggling in recent years, they have historically been incredibly successful at moving a diverse student body toward graduation. They have been able to do this, in my opinion, largely because they are politically and operationally inoculated from the nonsense happening below. By virtue of having a separate board, they are in a position to exert political influence on D65 as opposed to being absorbed into the dysfunction of that governing body.
In terms of pay differential: fewer HS teachers are trained every year than K-8 teachers. HS teachers often require specific endorsements and demonstrations of content expertise. They are in higher demand, harder to find and, as such, end up getting paid more. There's more to it than that, but that's how it shows up in my work.
Finally, I thought the "50 signatures" comment above was something of a call to get a petition started.
Oh yeah, that was kind of a call to get a petition started and I'm going to do it because I'm still not convinced this is a bad idea. But I can be convinced (I'll reach out to you via email and we can debate). I could get 50 signatures this weekend at the Farmers Market.
This might take away autonomy from ETHS or it might not depending on how this new consolidated District gets structured. I am personally going to advocate that both boards get disbanded and we re-elected a new one with board members who are compensated.
Even if it did take away autonomy, I'm still not convinced that we (as a town) should value the autonomy of ETHS over making sure the K-8 teachers are fairly compensated for their work. Why do we pay a 9th grade science teacher 23% more than an 8th grade science teacher? The work is not meaningfully different.
I realize that ETHS holds a special place in a lot of people's hearts and none of this is about changing that but right now ETHS benefits to the detriment of D65. Sure, D65 has a lot of bad leadership and that's part of the reason for the mess but long term, the sustainability of K-8 districts isn't there - they have vastly more assets to worry about with none of the upside you get form the HS (like private donations, etc), labor/admin costs are going up and they're always going to be lagging in pay.
Like there is no way you can justify the 80% difference in pay in Skokie between K-8 and the Niles teachers! There's no amount of additional credentials they get worth that much more.